00:00:02.820 - 00:00:39.240

And now we are recording. It is recording. I'm going to stop recording. Today is Tuesday, August 19th, 2025. It is 1044 a.m. and I am preparing to record Karen and Fred Edelstein at 11 a.m. It is Tuesday, August 19th, 2025, and we are in the History Center in Avalon, New Jersey, interviewing Karen and Fred Edelstein for their memories for the

00:00:39.240 - 00:01:05.300

Avalon Memory Project, Avalon Story Project, I think we're going to begin calling it officially now. So if you could start, Karen, go ahead and state your name. Karen, my middle name is Wessel, but I didn't usually use it, Edelstein. And what else? Your address here? 110 Pelican Drive. Okay, and how long have you been here? 53 years. Okay, go ahead, Fred. Fred Edelstein,

00:01:06.080 - 00:01:37.000

110 Pelican, and same amount of time as Karen. We've been together for how many years? More than 53. More than 53. 56, I think. Congratulations. And if you don't mind saying your age, or roughly, decade. 80, but I'll be 81 on Monday. I am 82. So when you started coming to Avalon, were you both already married? Did you meet here? Did you

00:01:37.000 - 00:02:02.640

come separately and meet down here? What's your, tell me your story of your beginnings here in Avalon? Well, we were married, and we always went over to Ventnor Longport Margate, and we started renting. So, well, we had always rented with a group, and now we're a married couple, so we rented on our own. And our first rental was Ocean City, in an apartment. So at

00:02:02.640 - 00:02:29.640

the end of the day, we had this very nice car. What was it? A little Mercedes sports car. We used to drive the car with a convertible. Put down the top, drive the car. And every time we got to Avalon, we were just stunned by how beautiful it was, how wide the streets were, how quiet it was and peaceful. And then we, I got pregnant, we had a child, and then all of a

00:02:29.640 - 00:02:58.960

sudden you're needing it, or wanting a two-bedroom rental, and they're very expensive. So we thought it's better if we can buy a lot now, build a house. And Fred's friend, who was in the real estate business, said build on water, buy on water. So we did. And they had just finished the lots, Tito Mafia had just finished building the lots out there, and they had gone up a little

00:02:58.960 - 00:03:33.020

in price, but not much. And so we could do it. And we just did it. We didn't know anybody. We'd never spent a night in Avalon. Everybody thought we were crazy. But we thought it was just stunning, like an exceptional spot. So, what do you want to add? I think what got us moving south was our families had always vacationed on the Jersey Shore. And they vacationed normally in Longport,

00:03:33.180 - 00:04:04.900

Ventnor, Chelsea. And those communities, as were most communities down here, were driven by your ethnicity. In other words, if you were Italians, a lot of Italians moved over to Wildwood. A lot of Jewish people like us moved into Margate and Ventnor. And so that was our whole focal point. I mean, we didn't know much beyond what went south of Longport. And that's

00:04:04.900 - 00:04:29.940

why we took these rides, because we wanted to see what was out there. And, you know, we saw the dunes. And I always said, geez, wouldn't it be great to have dunes? Because, you know, up in New England, they had dunes. And the Hamptons had dunes. And none of the other Jersey Shore community had dunes, but Avalon. So we would come down and we'd kind of stroll through. We'd go to

00:04:29.940 - 00:04:55.920

look at the beach. The beach was completely empty. The beaches up north were totally crowded. And especially the beach we went to was 44th Street, which had a very long dune path. And you'd walk out of the end of the dune path and there were literally three people on the beach, four people on the beach. Never a problem with parking. I mean, it was just so open and wonderful.

00:04:56.680 - 00:05:18.200

And we said, well, let's buy here. And it didn't bother us too much that we had kind of got involved in a property outside our comfort zone. We also kind of wanted that, too. We really wanted our own life. And we didn't want 30 visitors every weekend and the intensity of that.

00:05:18.720 - 00:05:38.780

The amazing thing is that people didn't even know what Avalon was. They still don't. I mean, they just amazingly enough, I mean, we're here, we're bombarded with it every day, Avalon this, Avalon that. But we'll talk to people, you know, in the city and whatnot and say, well, where do you go down the shore? We say Avalon. Where's that?

00:05:39.840 - 00:05:59.880

Oh, wow. I mean, it's still, I mean, it's amazing. Amazing. And I'm not saying just one or two people, but a lot of people just have never been here, which is fine with us. And, you know, just amazing that they don't know that this exists. It's a real treasure. When you say city, is it Philadelphia or New York?

00:06:00.060 - 00:06:10.040

Oh, Philadelphia. Philadelphia. Okay. We always make fun of the New Yorkers when we see an Eric Lysens plate saying, oh, the New Yorkers are coming. That's it. We're done. The New Yorkers are coming, you know.

00:06:10.260 - 00:06:22.780

Get off the sidewalks. Right, right, right, right. So that's kind of, that's kind of the beginning, I think. And then we had a neighbor. So we bought the lot. Right.

00:06:24.380 - 00:06:45.060

And at the time, I thought the little river in front is going to fill in, you know, all these anxieties. Fred had none. But I was worried. Are we crazy? Because there was nobody there. And... Just one thing. We were the only house that was built, or maybe, it's back in the fingers.

00:06:46.620 - 00:07:00.880

There were maybe three other houses. We were almost rural. Wow. Which was amazing. Amazing. And so, yeah, so at the beginning, it was lonely. Because we didn't know anyone. Turned out the two

00:07:00.880 - 00:07:25.640

families from our neighborhood, Society Hill, in Philadelphia, they lived down here. They had houses down here. But we realized that later on. But out in the fingers, it was quiet. And when the kids were young, they really didn't have many people to play with. Yeah. There was one, one neighbor moved in about three or four house, three or four lots

00:07:26.140 - 00:07:44.960

from us, because there were no houses. And he was a family, and he was a great guy. And he had come over from Seattle City, or Ocean City, and his name was Joe Gallagher, Joe and Sissy Gallagher. And he was the chairman and CEO of, at that time... IVB.

00:07:44.960 - 00:08:09.020

IVB Bank. And, you know, big, big player. And he had eight children, which was kind of the norm down here at that time. I mean, the house had so many children. So it's just as an aside, his youngest child used to come over to our house, walk over at dinner time, because he always used to say, right, that there wasn't enough food for him, because everybody got food first, and he was

00:08:09.020 - 00:08:22.600

the youngest. And they didn't have a chair for him. And they didn't have a chair for him, right. So he used to sit down and have dinner with us. And Joe Gallagher was just, just a wonderful guy. I mean, he was a great neighbor and a lot of fun.

00:08:22.600 - 00:08:41.340

A whole family. Yeah, yeah. And then Ryan moved in next to Gallagher. So you start to see an Irish influence, which I think still exists today. And so, you know, you had each community had its own tribe. And we were kind of out of the, we were outliers.

00:08:41.660 - 00:09:05.340

But wherever... Okay, wherever we went, like when we first rented in Ocean City, and we had grown up in the 50s. So in the 50s, wasn't so far from the 40s. And so you were afraid as a Jewish person to branch out too much. And there, you know, back then there was some trouble, but

00:09:05.840 - 00:09:26.140

in Ocean City, every town we've been in, it's just like we're just a human. So we're comfortable. You know, we're happy. It's important, you know, to find a community and feel it and move here and love it. But we've always been part-time. When the kids were in school, we went back and forth. And even

00:09:26.140 - 00:09:55.480

in the summers, I didn't have enough of a support system or a social life to stay here all the time. So we always went back and forth until, was it last year? All these years. But actually, in this period of time from 1972, when we bought the lot and then built the house, we rebuilt the house three times.

00:09:55.760 - 00:10:06.240

Okay. But never, never changed the footprint. We didn't want anything too big. We wanted something to take care of. And each house had its...

00:10:07.120 - 00:10:27.460

Excuse me. Okay. We paused for a moment and we've started back up again. But what I wanted to say was we built the first house. And the first house, back then in the fingers, they called it, they didn't have gas hookups, electric was spotty.

00:10:27.920 - 00:10:43.480

I mean, it was just almost barren. And we built a house and the materials back then were not really that great. We're right on the water or the wind is sweeping across the wetlands and the materials really deteriorated.

00:10:44.240 - 00:11:00.600

So then we decided, well, they sort of delaminate the materials. So we said, okay, we have to build, have to do something about this. So we built a second house on top of the first house, you know, right, you know, putting a new siding, new windows,

00:11:01.240 - 00:11:13.940

all the things that had deteriorated. So that was house number two. House number three, when that house deteriorated, we utilized the material to build the second house, which was called Drive-It.

00:11:14.560 - 00:11:30.920

And Drive-It was a cement type material that had never been fully tested. But it was very good because we like contemporary architecture. So you could do curves, which you couldn't do with the plywood siding. You know, you could utilize different looks.

00:11:31.360 - 00:11:45.700

So we did that. But then we found out after years that Drive-It itself was defective, the material. So then we had to start about three or four years ago and say, okay, what are we going to do?

00:11:45.700 - 00:12:00.440

Because our granddaughter was walking down the wooden steps and her foot went through. So we decided, you know, that's it. You know, we can't have problems like that. So we decided to renovate that house.

00:12:00.760 - 00:12:13.800

So the builder comes over and he looks at it and says, you know, we can renovate it. And this is what it's going to cost. But he said, I want to tell you, Fred, he said, you'd probably be better off building from the bottom up, you know, rather than renovate.

00:12:13.800 - 00:12:21.400

First of all, it's difficult to find a renovated. I've heard that. People are saying in Avalon in general, on the barrier islands, nobody wants to renovate. Nobody wants to renovate.

00:12:21.480 - 00:12:31.080

And this guy wanted to renovate. He said he would. But then he said, my guys won't even get up on these. These walls are going to fall down and my guys can't be up there.

00:12:31.260 - 00:12:38.180

And very dramatic. That was the third. We just finished the third house two and a half years ago. Okay.

00:12:38.520 - 00:12:51.160

And that house is, all the mistakes we made in the first two houses, we did not repeat in the third house. But we used the same footprint again. And the footprint is, I mean, if you look at the houses out there now,

00:12:52.000 - 00:13:10.380

they're mansions, they're land yachts. And we have this, what we consider, this beautiful gem sitting amongst the land yachts. And it's roughly 36 feet by 36 feet, two stories. You know, we're above the floodplain now.

00:13:10.380 - 00:13:22.160

So, I mean, the things you had to do to make it right. So, that's been nice. But it used to be like a small town. So then we hired a babysitter.

00:13:22.400 - 00:13:33.980

And the daughter, one of the builders had, first of all, the builder, you were allowed to move in before you settled. You know how you make settlement on the house and then you move in? Yeah, he said, just move in.

00:13:34.240 - 00:13:46.980

Didn't need any certificate. Right, so we did that a couple days later. But, you know, it was that kind of an atmosphere. Then we had a babysitter, Terry Ann Nielsen, who I'll say just for posterity,

00:13:47.140 - 00:13:58.100

because she died very young. And she used to come in the summer and spend time with us. And her father was the builder. It was Nielsen and Charlesworth.

00:13:58.200 - 00:14:09.800

And she was from a big family and was a teenager at the time. Nice, nice, wonderful girl. And she married one of the policemen in Avalon, eventually. She had a bad marriage.

00:14:10.180 - 00:14:20.520

Then she married a policeman. Then she got sick. I think she died in her 30s. But Terry, after she worked for us, became the dog catcher.

00:14:20.660 - 00:14:28.260

Okay. So she found our dog once. Our dog ran away on Pelican. She found the dog down at the inlet.

00:14:29.940 - 00:14:36.620

Dog traveled. And brought the dog back. So it was like that. She knew exactly whose dog it was.

00:14:37.140 - 00:14:44.520

Yeah, yeah. Those were good times. Those were good times. Now, I think it's, you pick your spots.

00:14:45.080 - 00:14:54.220

Yeah. And we've changed, obviously, over the past 60 years or 50 years. And the paper peddler, we still have the paper peddler. That was our social life.

00:14:54.400 - 00:15:08.540

A guaranteed social life. She wasn't a paper peddler, so. One of the high points, I'd be remiss in not mentioning it, was the bongo room. I mean, we used to go to the bongo room and have so much fun.

00:15:09.300 - 00:15:21.640

And the Grease Band used to play. And just as a segue, at the, whatchamacallit, which fair is it? The 4-H Fair. The 4-H Fair.

00:15:22.040 - 00:15:25.600

The Grease Band was playing. Okay. Have you ever been to the 4-H Fair? Just a couple weeks ago.

00:15:25.720 - 00:15:30.180

I haven't been since I was a child. I'm remiss. I haven't taken my young girls to go. We really should.

00:15:30.860 - 00:15:36.600

I eat the chicken. The chicken. They ran out of chicken. We were one of the first to get there.

00:15:36.680 - 00:15:41.980

And we paid, and then they ran out of chicken. They had to pay. Yeah, give us our money back. I didn't go for the chicken.

00:15:42.340 - 00:15:59.420

I know, it's true. So what happened was, we went to see the Grease Band, you know, to relive our youth, all right? And one of the guys, there used to be like eight members. And six of them are gone, and two are left.

00:15:59.960 - 00:16:15.980

But they hired new people. But the original, fabulous Grease Band. And they just, we kind of relived our youth listening to the music. As another segway, Karen has just gotten over a knee replacement.

00:16:17.880 - 00:16:26.600

And we were dancing. And she tore something, her kneecap. Cracked my kneecap. Oh, my God, that was.

00:16:26.820 - 00:16:37.200

He said, I looked at your face, and you looked so happy. And I felt so happy. It was like Elvis was in the room. I was out of my mind.

00:16:38.340 - 00:16:54.360

I'll tell you, we've been really happy in Avalon. Avalon, you know, if we think of the properties we own, then we own the property in Florida, we own one in Philadelphia of Avalon. Is that Avalon has really been the steadying force in our lives.

00:16:54.960 - 00:17:09.280

You come down here, and you know, sooner we'd cross the bridge in Philadelphia, this starts to come down. It was, it's been wonderful, wonderful. One of the reasons, another reason, and it's a very outside reason.

00:17:09.960 - 00:17:26.500

They used to have, you had the Garden State Parkway. And when you came to the bridge at Tuckahoe, it dropped down to one or two lanes on each side. And there used to be a backup all the way down the parkway

00:17:27.000 - 00:17:39.080

to get into Stone Harbor, or Stone Harbor, Avalon, and Sea Isle. Backup. But we knew that they were widening the road. So they widened the road.

00:17:39.460 - 00:17:48.340

Was this 55 first? No, this is actually the Garden State Parkway. And 55 was completed to, not completed. It's never been completed.

00:17:48.960 - 00:18:06.320

But it's at the point where, you know, at least it takes you down. You know, you can go through the back, back way, as we say, and get here without a lot of trouble. So even on a busy weekend.

00:18:08.160 - 00:18:18.500

So, you know, we've learned how to time that. The other thing that we loved about Avalon, which the other communities didn't have, was that center strip of Dune Drive.

00:18:19.000 - 00:18:30.460

Because we were both athletes in our youth. And to find a place to work out was difficult. Because in the other shore communities, there were mostly one lane, you know, two lane highways.

00:18:30.840 - 00:18:39.880

So you're actually running in the street. And Avalon had, you know, the divider, and then two lanes on each side. Now they have a bike path.

00:18:39.880 - 00:18:52.040

So it really opened itself up to, you know, a lot of physical activity. And also, you know, they had the tennis courts. They had the basketball courts. I mean, they had the bocce.

00:18:52.540 - 00:19:01.300

I mean, they've really done a spectacular job. And the mayor's. Well, then the library. The library.

00:19:01.320 - 00:19:07.060

Oh, the library's been a wonderful thing. The history center, obviously. Yeah. Yeah.

00:19:07.440 - 00:19:20.780

So they know who they want to be or who they are. So, and they've only enhanced that. Now, might change a little bit because of the wealth coming in. It's hard to know what, you know, those particular people want,

00:19:21.040 - 00:19:31.400

you know, and where that's going. So, yeah. But, you know, you go on being who you are, and then either they'll like it or they won't.

00:19:31.560 - 00:19:40.040

Or they'll try to change it, and then we have an argument. But yeah, they're generally pretty quiet. You know, we're not really sure. You know, we just see our regular patrons like you guys.

00:19:40.440 - 00:19:49.220

And we still feel like, I mean, it's lost a lot of people who've moved away. Yeah. Or passed away sadly. Over the, I've been here 20 years.

00:19:49.480 - 00:19:56.400

And it's, that's been sad. But I just still feel the same vibe at the library. You know, the same community. It's there.

00:19:56.640 - 00:20:09.360

I think people are afraid of losing it, but it's still here. Well, yeah, it's still here. And we'll see, and like the Union League now, that's a big, they're going to try to do something big.

00:20:09.460 - 00:20:20.820

I'm a member. So that's sort of convenient for me. But I also don't like the fact that some people from Avalon can't go places that are theirs, that I think are still theirs.

00:20:21.160 - 00:20:31.600

And yeah, so we'll see. Well, it was amazing to have over a thousand people living in Avalon, or own homes in Avalon that belong to the Union League. Okay.

00:20:32.120 - 00:20:35.880

That's really interesting. That's why they built it. That's why they invested. Amazing.

00:20:36.880 - 00:20:52.400

And, you know, they did all their research. And, you know, they put in the golf courses, because they realized that 1,500 of their members played golf between, in a 30 mile radius or 30 minute radius of the golf course.

00:20:53.060 - 00:21:07.080

So, I mean, they're doing what's right for them. But then again, you know, Karen and I, we always, you know, we want things the way they are, you know, and any little change ruffles our feathers.

00:21:09.520 - 00:21:19.380

So, but, you know, we continue to love it. I mean, and some of the changes are good. I mean, you know, although we don't play pickleball, you know, all of a sudden pickleball became the rage.

00:21:19.740 - 00:21:25.220

They put in eight courts. Nobody's waiting for a court. I mean, our kids play pickleball. Heaven forbid.

00:21:26.560 - 00:21:48.040

So, it's really, it's, they have a great administration. I think that you have Rachel, who was the mayor before Pacliugi. And I think they've done, he was here for 30 years. I think in those 30 years, he's done a fabulous job

00:21:48.040 - 00:22:01.880

in terms of keeping the neighborhood, you know, Avalon neighborhood the way people expect it. So, but then you lost Sullivan's, you know, you lost Keene's, you lost, you know,

00:22:01.920 - 00:22:12.560

all these places that were. And each one felt pretty wrenching. And you have to go offshore now for quite a few things. I mean, Sullivan's was so much fun.

00:22:13.500 - 00:22:19.100

They had everything. I'd never gotten to go there, but I know about it. Yeah. Oh, they used to have a breakfast bar.

00:22:20.060 - 00:22:29.860

And the builders used to come in, the contractors. That's where we had our building. Everybody's smoking away, smoking away, you know. You know, so funny.

00:22:30.840 - 00:22:41.300

And the builder used to roll up his sleeve and put his ashes in his cup. That was really cool. But even now, you know, we have the Marstons

00:22:41.300 - 00:22:52.960

have been around for a hundred years. You have the Keene's have been around for a hundred years. I mean, you have the old families. And that's funny because we're probably an old family.

00:22:52.960 - 00:23:04.780

I mean, in 72. And yet we don't consider ourselves that. Because there is a whole cluster of people way before us or people who really made a commitment.

00:23:06.300 - 00:23:12.340

Yeah, who really. The Jumpas and the Mazas. They're all related. But we stayed.

00:23:12.560 - 00:23:23.840

I mean, we stayed through everything. Well, there was no thick and thin, though. It wasn't like, the only thing was, you want to sell your house and get the money out of it

00:23:23.840 - 00:23:32.340

or do you want to stay? So, OK, we'll stay. And this summer we had. This was my best summer.

00:23:32.560 - 00:23:37.200

I don't know if you feel. Oh, yeah, I had a great summer. Now we have more time. Seven grandchildren.

00:23:38.460 - 00:23:50.260

And first of all, with grandchildren, you love them, but you're not responsible for them. And now they're the oldest ones, 25. So the house was for the first year in and out,

00:23:50.260 - 00:23:59.680

in and out, in and out. Not too much work because they did a lot of things. And it really peaked for me. I think it could continue to do that.

00:23:59.820 - 00:24:12.880

But, you know, it's really our biggest blessing. I think when we built this current house, we really built it with the understanding, you know, we put in an extra bedroom or two.

00:24:13.540 - 00:24:26.380

And we put in a couple extra porches. And so everybody has space. So the kids, you know, want to come down because they know there's a bunk room for the little ones

00:24:26.380 - 00:24:41.420

because we have three little ones that are under six. Older ones, you know, that are 25 to 18. So we have our grandson who lives in Florence in Italy. And he comes over every year.

00:24:42.420 - 00:24:57.400

And so it's really it brings it. It's the place where everybody gets together and it gives us great pleasure to see them like any family. You know, you look behind the facade, there's a mess.

00:24:58.800 - 00:25:11.760

But I have to say that all the kids get along and they enjoy each other and they have fun. And that gives, I mean, if we were put here for a reason, that's a good reason to be put here.

00:25:12.360 - 00:25:22.080

And they really enjoy it. They still use the 44th Street Beach path. Have you walked on the 44th Street Beach? You know, it goes for like a mile.

00:25:22.220 - 00:25:31.740

Yeah. And when we first came, it was like half a mile. And slowly it grew and grew and grew. And even though they're taking all their stuff,

00:25:32.460 - 00:25:43.240

they could take a shorter route, but they don't. They prefer the 44th Street because it's like, I mean, it's an environmentalist dream. I mean, it's what goes on on that path.

00:25:43.900 - 00:25:50.060

You know, the bicycles lined up. I tried to get a picture of that the other day because I thought it would make such a great picture, but I needed a good lens.

00:25:50.200 - 00:26:02.800

It wasn't, but it's beautiful. There was one day we went, there must have been a hundred bikes. I mean, people just, you know, ride up, lean your bike against the fence, walk right on the beach.

00:26:03.220 - 00:26:08.000

It's terrific. Don't worry about locks. It's going to be there when you get back. We still leave the house open.

00:26:09.560 - 00:26:22.220

Don't tell anybody when you play it at Zucco. We're still pretending that it's innocent, that we're innocent. You know, you have to lock everything up. You know, so we always took great pleasure in locking nothing up,

00:26:22.420 - 00:26:37.160

our cars, nothing. And we've had two things with the rescue squad. I just want to say that's where they've helped us out. Amazing, amazing what they do.

00:26:37.520 - 00:26:47.240

Like we always gave a small contribution. Now we give a bigger contribution. But what a professional thing. I mean, and this is a little Avalon,

00:26:47.520 - 00:27:04.120

but people are devoted to their service in the rescue squad. So we've had two occasions and they more than met our expectations. We had no expectations, I guess, but more than did the job. And it's nice because that's another part of community.

00:27:04.320 - 00:27:11.840

You know, they'll check on people if you're concerned about somebody, you know, we'll do that. Sometimes we won't have seen a patron in a while and they hadn't gone back to Pennsylvania, right?

00:27:12.000 - 00:27:23.780

So, you know, we'll go and do well checks and they know people. And I know what they do at Christmas. We're not here, but that they give the gifts that our neighbor next door moved down full time with her son.

00:27:24.660 - 00:27:35.340

And they come by and give gifts on Christmas Eve. I think it is. Yeah, they take the fire truck around with Santa. Sweet, such a sweet tradition.

00:27:35.980 - 00:27:47.000

Yeah. Plus, what's also nice is that I'm a veteran. So they have a flag with my picture on a pole. So you've got the veteran.

00:27:47.300 - 00:27:53.240

We're going for everything. We're getting a bench. We're trying to get a bench. I think they stopped doing the benches.

00:27:53.460 - 00:28:00.660

But they're going to add more. Okay, great. I think people want them. So I guess you have to call him back for.

00:28:02.360 - 00:28:11.620

You did? Yeah, I wasn't sure where that was coming from. So do you have any questions? How many children do you have?

00:28:12.040 - 00:28:20.460

Three. And what are their ages? 53, 50, 40. We had a late in life one.

00:28:21.520 - 00:28:33.440

And they enjoy and they still come. All of your children still come every summer. They have their own rooms, which is great. I mean, all their stuff, you know, is nice.

00:28:33.600 - 00:28:39.460

From their childhood. They still have everything set up. Yeah. And they come.

00:28:39.880 - 00:28:50.840

Well, John, his thing is the bay. He dives right into the bay. He walks right through the house, down the walkway, off the dock and into the bay. Jane is the one in Italy.

00:28:51.020 - 00:29:06.700

So she comes with her son and her husband is here now. And her husband just loves it. And Phil, not so much because it's hard with the three little ones. And they might actually buy a house in the mountains, so we'll see.

00:29:07.360 - 00:29:19.740

But we did our thing, so. Yeah. Have to let them be. And we made a couple of very good friends here,

00:29:19.840 - 00:29:29.880

even after the Dutton's and the Simmons left. And they were close friends. We have good friends. Do you know, I'm just saying about Garrett.

00:29:30.520 - 00:29:39.720

Oh, yeah. That Garrett was, the Dutton's were the parents of G Love. OK, OK. So just for your, you know, add some color.

00:29:41.340 - 00:29:48.220

And you see different people here. We see Joe Paterno walking on the beach. We did. We did.

00:29:49.820 - 00:30:02.280

And then the quarterback now for Chicago. OK. He's an Avalon guy. And we used to love Kohler's, but Kohler's got old.

00:30:03.080 - 00:30:14.040

We still love Heidner's. Then there's Kohler's. We don't know what happened there. We'd like to know the backstory of how that all evolved and what happened.

00:30:14.540 - 00:30:21.860

I don't know. I really don't. That's a good, you know, I just I know that the people bought it. And it was another person who had worked there and passed down from,

00:30:22.000 - 00:30:32.540

you know, like a couple of different people who had worked for Kohler's purchased it. I just and then they actually were able to move the shop because the shop wasn't for sale with it. But I don't know.

00:30:32.800 - 00:30:55.080

Otherwise, there's the people that are there now are very nice and on 27th and she is a relative of the of the founder. OK, so they both have reasons why they belong there. I think the guy that started it is comes to the trivia night, I think.

00:30:55.660 - 00:30:59.800

Bischoff? Bernie Bischoff. He was yeah, he was the second owner. He bought it from the Kohler's.

00:30:59.860 - 00:31:05.600

He worked for them. He came here. He was a German immigrant. And so was Mr. Kohler, Mr. and Mrs. Kohler.

00:31:05.960 - 00:31:20.000

They came to Avalon and opened a bakery. And he said when he came down in the 60s, I think early 60s, he got off a bus at the age of 16 or 17 and had heard that this man, Mr. Kohler from his neighborhood was here and he might be able to get a job.

00:31:20.160 - 00:31:35.400

And he just sort of wandered in and worked for him and then eventually bought it. And then somebody who worked for him bought it or bought it. Then the newspaper girl bought it. But we have friends now on Fifth Avenue that we spend almost every weekend.

00:31:35.740 - 00:31:44.280

They have a great pool. The kids go in the pool. I said it's like a compound now, except we're separated. But Craig and Debbie.

00:31:44.820 - 00:31:50.680

Yeah, Craig and Debbie. We see a lot. And they're wonderful people. They're good friends of ours here at the History Center.

00:31:50.820 - 00:31:57.620

They support us a lot. So he's on the board now. Yes, which we were happy about. He's on the Historical Society board.

00:31:59.700 - 00:32:09.080

Craig's on the board here. The Historical Society. So they started this place and they still meet here. They're basically a support group for us.

00:32:09.160 - 00:32:18.800

They have their own projects. Right now they're putting in historical markers, like the ones you'll see in the city with the metal. So that's going to be going forward a big thing they're going to do,

00:32:19.000 - 00:32:27.780

which is great because it's not something that we could do. So we complement each other. I thought, how about the Historical Society on Route 9? What is that one?

00:32:27.880 - 00:32:39.480

Oh, the Cape Mead County Historical Society. Cape Mead County Genealogical. Are you affiliated with them at all? We are not here, but we work with them as another local history organization.

00:32:39.720 - 00:32:54.840

Right now we're actually doing the Rev NJ for the Revolution 250. And all the little local historical groups have a coalition. And we're all contributing pieces for a newsletter. And we might do a cemetery walking tour for Revolutionary War veterans

00:32:54.840 - 00:33:02.440

that might be lesser known in the area. So there might be a stop at Craig and Dev's because they've got that little cemetery. Also the Underground Railroad.

00:33:02.940 - 00:33:10.780

Yeah, there's not a lot. There is not a lot about that. But I want to go to the Harriet Tubman Museum because that's great. There's so little documentation that they have,

00:33:10.860 - 00:33:24.940

but they've pretty much come up with a pretty strong case. And Harriet Tubman had actually worked at Congress Hall. And she apparently used the money she earned in the summers to help with her expeditions for getting slaves to free areas.

00:33:25.160 - 00:33:36.300

What a job they did. What a rescue mission. But I know up in Linwood, there's a house in Linwood that actually has an underground story that's associated.

00:33:36.460 - 00:33:48.080

They've got a hidden room in their basement. And it's a little bit easier up that way and out in Cumberland County off the shore because it's closer to Delaware to get people across from Delaware and up north. Right.

00:33:48.120 - 00:33:55.840

So down here, it was sort of out of the way. Yes, yeah. It's kind of harder to make the case. But I know they've done a really great job at the Harriet Tubman Museum.

00:33:56.180 - 00:34:01.240

Yeah. Find out some more. Sadly, we don't have a lot of that here. We've got some interesting Black history here.

00:34:01.800 - 00:34:17.000

The Methodist Church that's now a home on 17th and on Dune right at 17th. And we've got the cottage behind us that had been there. But that little shed that's on our property used to sleep a couple people to four people. And they worked.

00:34:17.120 - 00:34:24.400

It was probably people who worked at the Avalon Hotel. We're not exactly sure where it originated. But it landed at the church. And then the owners donated it.

00:34:25.120 - 00:34:31.640

Mm-hmm. So there's so much interesting things about Avalon that it's a story. Oh, yeah. In a nutshell, it's tiny.

00:34:32.340 - 00:34:38.820

But there's a lot. There's a lot. And there's a real sense of community, I think. But you know something that's interesting?

00:34:39.000 - 00:34:57.040

You said something earlier. And I'd like to just mention it for a second. We can look out our window and see a broad expanse of homes, of new homes. And the amazing thing to me, and I keep on saying to Karen, nobody's here.

00:34:58.480 - 00:35:02.100

Nobody's here. They're in the house. They're in the house. I think they're in the house.

00:35:02.240 - 00:35:13.040

Maybe. And I can't figure out. Because what's happened in places like this, you have Charleston. And Charleston has all the historic homes.

00:35:14.020 - 00:35:25.260

And the people would come down, renovate them, spend two weeks. And they'd be dark for 50 weeks. And it wasn't good for business. It wasn't good for anything.

00:35:25.960 - 00:35:46.840

So they passed a law that if you buy one of these homes, that you have to live in it a certain amount of time during the year. If you can do that, who knows? But I'm concerned that when I see all these homes going up, and you know that there's

00:35:46.840 - 00:36:00.640

just, you know, it's a, I think it could be somewhat problematic. But I think being Avalon will deal with it. Oh yeah. It will be dealt with.

00:36:01.040 - 00:36:14.520

It won't be a lasting problem. Right. When you built, and it was, it's really funny that you brought up, you said The Fingers. And we've been talking, it's going to be part of our Avalon in the Changing Environment

00:36:15.060 - 00:36:25.620

exhibit in the spring that we're working on right now. And we're going to talk about the development of The Fingers. It had originally been promoted as The Lagoons. The Lagoons.

00:36:25.740 - 00:36:31.080

That's what we called it. It was. Okay. When did that kind of, when did that transition to Fingers?

00:36:31.300 - 00:36:39.400

And they mostly were, because almost everyone, no one calls them Lagoons. We started to hear it. Okay. We just started to hear it, but we didn't start it or.

00:36:39.820 - 00:36:43.520

We actually bought from Tito. Okay. Macchia. That was my question too.

00:36:43.900 - 00:36:59.340

Although he wouldn't sell directly to us. We had to buy through a realtor, but he was the yes or no guy, you know, and set the price. And I don't know when, I don't know when it changed. It's like a colloquialism.

00:36:59.500 - 00:37:05.960

Right. You know that we left some pictures here of our homes over that period of time. Yes. Was that recent?

00:37:06.180 - 00:37:08.900

Yes, yes, yes. We did see them. They got approved at our collection. Oh, they did?

00:37:08.920 - 00:37:14.380

They did. Oh, good. Thank you. I have another one that is just The Fingers.

00:37:14.640 - 00:37:23.220

Okay. You know, it maybe, it shows the beginning of construction. And I think that was from 1970, 1970. Okay.

00:37:23.380 - 00:37:32.900

Something like that. Showed like two homes just beginning. But it was, it was, I used to say to Karen, it's almost rural back here. Because there's nobody there.

00:37:33.420 - 00:37:47.240

Right. And we almost considered moving to the dunes. There's lots of the dunes. Because they were offering them, but there were, you know, there were problems with zoning.

00:37:47.540 - 00:37:52.600

Could you build a house, right? Are you able to build a house? Are you able to bring electricity? Yeah, all that kind of stuff.

00:37:53.480 - 00:37:58.400

And. That would have been a good thing. That would have been a great buy. But we like where we are.

00:37:58.500 - 00:38:04.140

We really do like where we are. And now it's becoming a neighborhood. People are getting to know each other. It's slow.

00:38:05.120 - 00:38:17.320

But. We just had the other day, I was talking to, we met this guy that lives four houses down. Very nice guy. And we were out talking with him.

00:38:17.600 - 00:38:29.560

And two people walked out of their house. One guy has an empty car. You know, so it kind of was four or five of us sitting around and talking. And I said, well, how long you been here?

00:38:30.180 - 00:38:39.800

And the lady said, well, she's been there and she lives four houses from us. She's been here 40 years, right? We've been here like 60 or 50. How many years have we been in Avalon?

00:38:40.080 - 00:38:46.740

Fifty. Three. Whatever. I said, how could we have never met?

00:38:47.540 - 00:38:55.280

That's so funny. Maybe it was just always alternating. You'd be here and she wasn't. And then there was another person there also.

00:38:55.960 - 00:39:10.440

He had been there for like 40 years and we had never met. And there are people that we've met that die. And that's always sad. But I would say in general, Avalon people are friendly people and they want to connect.

00:39:10.900 - 00:39:23.180

They want to, you know, they're not pretentious. They just want to connect. Yeah. Like we have next to us now, we have one, two, like three houses where we really do know the

00:39:23.180 - 00:39:31.840

people and are four. But really knowing the people means, how are you doing? Fine. How was your year?

00:39:32.060 - 00:39:34.880

Good. Okay. Yeah. Mine's pretty good.

00:39:34.920 - 00:39:43.340

The kids are fine. I mean, that's the whole conversation for the summer. I feel like that's New Jersey, you know, New Jersey neighbors. We're kind of.

00:39:43.660 - 00:40:01.100

Yeah, right, right. Tom. I don't know. It's been a wonderful, I mean, we're getting close to the end, you know.

00:40:01.100 - 00:40:14.640

But it's been a wonderful, wonderful place for us and our family. And you make decisions about your life. And this was a decision like once made. Yeah.

00:40:14.800 - 00:40:25.620

We like to travel a lot. We'd be on the Riviera. We wanted to do was come home to Avalon. You know, it was, it just was right for us.

00:40:25.620 - 00:40:37.760

Yeah. Do you remember if the houses back then when they were being developed, did they slowly become built? Or did they kind of pop up at some point where it was like a little slow at first?

00:40:37.800 - 00:40:43.040

And all of a sudden it was like houses, houses, houses. Or did it feel like it took a while? It took a while. Yeah.

00:40:43.360 - 00:40:52.580

It took a while. I think also the lots. I mean, we used to call it, we used to come down here, we used to call it, we're in a rent, rent, sale, sale.

00:40:52.580 - 00:41:08.700

And the reason we used to call it that, it's because that they didn't have an ordinance. So you can put as many signs on your property as possible. So, or maybe four, a maximum of four signs. So you'd have two realtors who would put up, you know, different signs to rent.

00:41:09.080 - 00:41:20.740

Or because almost everything was for rent then. Now it's not, not so. So you had, let's go to rent, rent, sale, sale. That was because every house had four signs on it.

00:41:21.680 - 00:41:38.480

But did they, like, if you think of the neighborhood now, all those houses, did they pop up? I mean, I think it was just gradual. You know, because we've been here for so long, you know, they just kept on. But there was a period of time, I think, probably, Karen,

00:41:39.180 - 00:41:48.480

maybe about 10 years after we built that they really started to. 10 years? Five years after we built. I would say 20.

00:41:48.860 - 00:41:56.520

20. But it was more like the 90s. Well, there were the big, big building booms in the 80s and the 90s. Definitely late 80s, early 90s.

00:41:56.800 - 00:42:04.560

There was a lot that was put up. Yeah, there were times when you couldn't get down the street because everything was under construction. Yeah.

00:42:04.900 - 00:42:21.080

But now it's quieted down a lot. There's always something fabulous going on. Now they demo and they build, demo builds. And there's always, on our finger alone, there's always two or three houses being built.

00:42:21.940 - 00:42:34.400

They're knocked down and being built, of which ours was included. But I would say it did be, it's a neighborhood now. It's a full, authentic neighborhood. Versus how long ago?

00:42:36.000 - 00:42:46.540

40 years ago. Okay. Yeah, we were really alone back there. Where was the closest store to you?

00:42:46.700 - 00:42:53.440

Like if you had to go get milk or... I've heard of Lena's. Poor Lena. She was fabulous.

00:42:53.720 - 00:43:03.460

She was a feisty woman. But her husband got asbestosis. Oh, okay. And so she would always tell me how he would come home from work

00:43:03.460 - 00:43:13.740

and she would have to wash all his clothes every day. He died and she finally sold and left. But she was great. We used to bike.

00:43:14.300 - 00:43:21.900

Biking was our major mode of transportation. How about the other one, Fred, down at 21st Street? Where did we... Donnelly's.

00:43:21.940 - 00:43:34.180

Okay. And you had King's Pharmacy. I mean, you really had a... The hardware store, which now we have a new hardware store, and it's very nice.

00:43:37.780 - 00:43:49.780

But nothing was open. Very little was open year-round. So, you know, it was very difficult for the merchants to earn a living on three months. When was the Wawa built?

00:43:50.640 - 00:43:56.420

The Wawa was in the 80s. I'm trying to remember, 84. Because before that, you couldn't buy milk. Okay.

00:43:56.540 - 00:44:04.940

You had to go offshore to buy milk. There wasn't even an Acme there then. I don't know. No, that was later than I thought.

00:44:05.040 - 00:44:16.780

I looked that up not too long ago and I don't remember that ever being an empty lot, but it was. They built that in 98, I believe. Don't quote me on that one, but Wawa was 1984. August of 1984, they had the grand opening.

00:44:16.780 - 00:44:27.840

So before that, if you were down here, you had to drive all the way out to Courthouse to get milk because... Well, there were a couple places in Staten Harbor, but they didn't last either. No.

00:44:31.360 - 00:44:40.480

So... It's good. I wonder if it'll ever be a year-round community. I don't know.

00:44:40.620 - 00:44:57.960

I wonder that too sometimes. Things seem to kind of go in cycles and will it end up being... Because it was primarily summer when it was built and then as the 30s and the 40s, people were here more year-round.

00:44:58.420 - 00:45:08.360

Not a huge amount of people, but more than are here now. I mean, there's 1,000 people in the population here year-round now. And it got up to at least 3,000 at some point. Wow.

00:45:08.760 - 00:45:13.580

Yeah. Well, they used to have the railroad. Mm-hmm. It used to come in.

00:45:14.540 - 00:45:21.700

Yeah, the railroad made it easier to travel. But even before that, it must have been murder trying to get here. You know, before the railroad, some people want... That's how special it is here.

00:45:21.920 - 00:45:28.120

Some people... It was worth the travel. Right. So what else?

00:45:28.260 - 00:45:46.000

Anything else? Usually, it's like talk about a few of your favorite businesses. Um, basically, is there any other thing that you remember very strongly that, you know, story that just stands out that you want to tell me?

00:45:48.200 - 00:45:57.860

What we liked? I think, you know, again, we don't like change. But change is inevitable. We know that.

00:45:58.220 - 00:46:06.840

So we live with it. But there were certain things like there was the Avalon Pier. Mm-hmm. You know, and we used to pay to go on the Fisherman Pier.

00:46:07.480 - 00:46:18.220

Okay. You know, that was fun. And, you know, our lives revolved around the kids and going to the beach. But it was lonely.

00:46:18.380 - 00:46:30.640

They used to make a friend and the friend was running for two weeks and the friend would leave. So that's why we never stayed all the time. Yeah, because it just wasn't working. Did your kids work here in the summer?

00:46:30.640 - 00:46:38.000

Did you end up coming long enough? Or was it just because it was so back and forth? They didn't really? One worked at Uncle Bill's.

00:46:39.660 - 00:46:54.940

And then when the Union League opened their restaurants, they worked two or three of them. They opened the bungalow and they worked there with dishwashing or bussing or yeah. So that kept them and they would ride their bikes up.

00:46:55.200 - 00:47:08.800

And yeah, so that was good. Yeah. But they never, you had the kids who were spending their whole summers here. And they could never, they were never part of that crew.

00:47:11.500 - 00:47:26.100

And, you know, so they were always basically, you know, either brought a friend down with them because they didn't make a lot of friends. Yeah, they were never part of the. Never part of the gang.

00:47:26.700 - 00:47:35.720

No. Which was maybe a good thing. It probably was. Yeah, I know compared to what's going on now.

00:47:36.380 - 00:47:46.440

I know, I know, it's true. Wild going so on. But they never joined in the sports activities that were offered. They tried.

00:47:46.900 - 00:47:53.360

Once in a while they would try. But if you didn't go with somebody you knew. Right. It was always hard to break in.

00:47:53.360 - 00:48:06.780

And if it wasn't full time, you know, just to come down. And why didn't, why didn't we come down? And oh, you know why we tried. Because at that point Karen wasn't working.

00:48:07.600 - 00:48:17.880

So she was, she was going to stay here with the kids. At that time we had two kids. They were little. And I would go commute to work every day.

00:48:18.020 - 00:48:22.520

Okay. And that lasted. You could never be apart. It's true.

00:48:22.520 - 00:48:34.740

That lasted six weeks. Because it was just too debilitating to drive back and forth to the city. Yeah, it was hard. I mean I used to get in that car and just drive, you know, to the city.

00:48:34.820 - 00:48:43.560

And our factory's located very close to the Ben Franklin Bridge. So it wasn't even, you didn't have to travel all through the city. Right. So.

00:48:44.220 - 00:48:55.300

It's still a grind, especially with that 42. Yeah, yeah. I think, I think that, that was, that was a problem for the kids. Jane had a friend.

00:48:55.420 - 00:49:05.920

She had Sidney. Oh, Sidney who became a friend of the Wetlands Institute. Ashley O'Connor was, she had. Yeah, they were very nice.

00:49:05.940 - 00:49:17.360

Jane had a friend named Ashley, yeah. Yeah, and we were kind of, we were never, we didn't, you know, we didn't join the Yacht Club. We didn't, either Stone Harbor or Avalon. They sent a letter.

00:49:17.520 - 00:49:26.360

They do ask people. Yeah, they asked us if we wanted to join. And we weren't joiners. I mean, really, it was probably us more than Avalon.

00:49:26.620 - 00:49:33.640

I mean, just we were. A little idiosyncratic. Yeah. But there's something I wanted to say, though.

00:49:38.700 - 00:49:53.440

Oh, I was thinking about how our synagogue always is the center of Jewish learning in Philadelphia. That Avalon really is the center of shore life. To me, Avalon is so great.

00:49:53.780 - 00:50:04.960

It's that great. So I don't know if you want to cause a ruckus with everybody else. But it's spectacular. It's spectacular.

00:50:05.160 - 00:50:26.760

It is spectacular. We are so blessed to have a place here and not to have to go home. And we always said that if something happened to us, but it's just financially, that Avalon would be the last place to go.

00:50:26.840 - 00:50:37.780

I mean, Avalon is our base, in a sense. More so now because we sold our house at home. And we live in an apartment. It's a great apartment.

00:50:37.980 - 00:50:43.220

But it's not, we don't own it. Right. So now this is it. This is what we own.

00:50:43.360 - 00:50:56.060

This is where family comes. And we get to see the kids and the grandkids. Time to shed the properties, because we're in our 80s. So you never know what's going to confront you.

00:50:57.660 - 00:51:09.800

You want to be where, have you considered being down here longer year round at all? Or is it a little bit? This summer we were. This summer we spent, we just spent the longest time in Avalon

00:51:09.800 - 00:51:16.600

we've spent since we've lived here. We spent like four weeks. Four weeks. The whole summer, really.

00:51:16.620 - 00:51:26.180

The whole summer, yeah. We just went back for a couple days. Pick up the mail and come back. But I mean, and it's been wonderful.

00:51:26.920 - 00:51:35.600

I mean, we do nothing. We can't think about really going home. But I think we will, because the little girls are there. And we have friends.

00:51:36.120 - 00:51:47.660

Because Society Hill is a little bit like Avalon, where people stayed. You know, some people stayed. So we're all close. And I don't want to abandon.

00:51:48.820 - 00:52:05.080

I don't want to abandon either. But I, you know, we spent two or three days, you know, and then a couple weeks here. You know, I'd sooner, I think, make this our long time home than the apartment, I guess.

00:52:06.080 - 00:52:18.480

I mean, not to jettison our friends, but in the city. We still have some talking to do. Yeah. I always celebrate when somebody comes in, and they've converted, and they're here.

00:52:18.560 - 00:52:26.340

And I get to change their status from non-resident homeowner to Avalon resident. It's always like a little cheer. It's like, here, you're around now with us. It's great.

00:52:26.760 - 00:52:31.760

But I think, I know, it's awesome. But you said, it's always a decision. Yeah, yeah. It's a decision.

00:52:32.200 - 00:52:36.680

Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk. We're pretty close. We're pretty close.

00:52:37.140 - 00:52:44.680

I mean, you guys like peace and quiet. It's one of the things that drew you here, as well. So I don't think you would be traumatized. There are people who have moved here year-round and had to leave because they couldn't bear

00:52:44.680 - 00:52:53.120

the wind. The weather's just like North Carolina used to be. You know, here, we don't get snow really that much. Do you remember Reverend Fred Heather?

00:52:53.660 - 00:53:01.900

No. He was a minister of the Methodist Church on Dune Drive. Okay. And he lived here for many years.

00:53:02.120 - 00:53:14.420

They were about much younger than we were, much older than we were. Older. And he finally left because of the wind. He couldn't take a walk.

00:53:15.080 - 00:53:24.980

He was getting older and infirm, and he couldn't take a walk. So they moved to Amenden. Okay. But we were our friends for a while.

00:53:24.980 - 00:53:38.020

Yeah, we had friends on and off. I mean, we had plenty of friends. But... We still have to talk, Fred.

00:53:38.160 - 00:53:44.280

We don't really know. See, I'd love to. I love the fall. And I love the winter.

00:53:44.920 - 00:53:51.360

I mean, I love to walk outside and not see a soul. It is. It's kind of so healing. It's great to have everyone in the bustle.

00:53:51.540 - 00:53:55.780

It's so... And then it's also nice to have the peace. Yeah. But COVID, we spent a whole year here.

00:53:56.280 - 00:54:07.980

We were one of those people that everybody hated. But first, they wouldn't let us come. They said, no, even if you're a homeowner, we don't want you here. Okay.

00:54:10.380 - 00:54:17.900

It wasn't a welcoming. Right, right. I can't blame them, but it was scary. So we spent that whole year.

00:54:19.100 - 00:54:26.560

You see, on the boardwalk almost every day. Walk the boardwalk. It was really... It was a wonderful...

00:54:26.560 - 00:54:36.940

I mean, it's a terrible time for the country and the world. But it was a... I'd say it was a wonderful time for us. I mean, we each caught COVID.

00:54:37.060 - 00:54:39.700

Did we catch COVID? No, I didn't. You did. I did, yeah.

00:54:39.760 - 00:54:44.100

Mild case, I think. Not here, though. It was in Philadelphia. Yeah.

00:54:45.860 - 00:54:51.760

So... Where do you live, Shannon? I live in Delhaven. So it's the southernmost part of Middle Township.

00:54:51.760 - 00:55:00.140

But I grew up in West Cape May. And I worked in Stone Harbor as a young adult for a long time. Oh, right. Do you remember the colors?

00:55:00.580 - 00:55:11.120

The store colors that was in Stone Harbor 96th Street? They sold really brightly colored cotton sportswear stuff called Fresh Produce. It was the brand. I was the manager there for a while.

00:55:12.680 - 00:55:19.440

My store now is Hoy's. Hoy's Boutique, I call it. So she got that shirt. They have everything, you know.

00:55:19.460 - 00:55:24.340

Yeah, they have a lot. Not quite as much as Sullivan's had. No. No.

00:55:24.880 - 00:55:29.560

I said, Karen, have you washed it yet? It might disappear. No, I did. I did a couple times.

00:55:30.220 - 00:55:36.200

Good. I'll tell you, the prices have gotten very high. Yes. On every food.

00:55:37.100 - 00:55:43.700

Yes. I feel bad. I used to go to Oceanside Seafood all the time. I love jumbo lump crab meat.

00:55:43.860 - 00:55:52.980

And it can't, A, they've changed the names of everything, I think. So you're confused and don't know what you're getting. You know, when you buy the cans, it's just not affordable. Matthews has it in the case.

00:55:53.280 - 00:55:58.220

OK, that's good to know. $50 a can. What? My husband goes there frequently.

00:55:58.500 - 00:56:04.100

But I just, I can't spend that kind of money. It's a huge splurge. You know, it has to be like an anniversary or something. Yeah.

00:56:04.420 - 00:56:09.520

The jumbo lump is $50 a tin. It's just... It's horrible. It's so much.

00:56:09.540 - 00:56:21.580

But I'd rather get a good one and not have so much than that other stuff is very strange. No, I can't. And I haven't had a good crab cake since the Rio station closed, really, because they did the jumbo lump crab meat with no filler.

00:56:21.780 - 00:56:27.120

That was really, really good. And nobody's going to do that anymore. They don't want to put it on the menu. They can't.

00:56:27.220 - 00:56:34.220

It's not... They'd have to raise their prices so much. It'd be the same price as one of the cowboy steaks, you know. $60 for a plate of crab cakes.

00:56:34.300 - 00:56:41.860

Yeah, right. Like bookbinders used to do. Remember, it was $30 a crab cake. And it was like, horrendous.

00:56:42.240 - 00:56:49.060

But remember that crab cake hotline we had briefly? No, it wasn't here. They put one in the villas. There was one in Stone Harbor for a little while.

00:56:49.060 - 00:56:55.540

And you could buy them made up, but not cooked. Or you can buy them cooked and take them home. They were delicious. They weren't this big.

00:56:55.700 - 00:57:03.780

I'll have to... Karen makes a thought. As a matter of fact, we made crab cakes the other night. And they started to fall apart in the pan.

00:57:04.420 - 00:57:14.560

So I said, well, you know, let me kind of mash them around. So I came up with a whole new concept, though. Instead of a crab cake, it would be crab pie. Okay.

00:57:15.780 - 00:57:21.520

We need some extra crispy parts. Mm-hmm. And I'll tell you something. That was delicious.

00:57:21.740 - 00:57:32.720

That was really good. I don't think we have anything interesting left to say. Well, it's exactly an hour. It's very funny, because usually these interviews go about an hour.

00:57:32.900 - 00:57:37.220

Just sort of naturally. And then they sort of clear out. That's depressing. But as you think about it...

00:57:37.220 - 00:57:44.440

Because your whole life comes down to an hour. I mean, I'll just keep on talking. You can go. I'll just take some room.

00:57:44.460 - 00:57:57.180

I'll go, too. The History Center, though, is amazing. When you were first being built, I said, they're tearing down all the history and building a History Center.

00:57:57.480 - 00:58:05.740

Like, I couldn't put it all together. But I really think you have a valuable role to play. Very, like, a soul of the community role. Thank you.

00:58:05.900 - 00:58:15.840

We needed the place to get the things that we were losing, you know? We needed a place to display them and maintain them and house them. Now it's a lot of signs. As the businesses go, we're getting signs.

00:58:16.160 - 00:58:21.000

If you run around... If you take a walk around the back when you go, there's a couple new ones. The kitchen... Oh, gosh.

00:58:21.040 - 00:58:27.360

It was Craig Cunningham's place. Kitchen something. He just gave us the sign. I can't think of it.

00:58:27.440 - 00:58:35.380

I don't like... I'd have to go look. It's like a big white sign. And they also gave us the paper peddler laid up sign that has been over when you come in

00:58:35.380 - 00:58:40.720

through the front door. We adore them. I was so nervous when they went out of business. I thought, this is my social life.

00:58:40.720 - 00:58:49.780

It's going because every morning... We see them every week. We would be there. And luckily, we stay.

00:58:50.040 - 00:58:54.860

We go over to Steve's. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 147 Steve's Cafe.

00:58:55.660 - 00:59:04.640

You might be in the group text sometimes when Debbie sends out like a little heartwarming text. Like where she'll send out... They're all heartwarming. They're the nuzzling animals.

00:59:07.760 - 00:59:13.900

They're something. They're great. Okay, Madam. Well, it has been wonderful talking to you.

00:59:13.980 - 00:59:18.900

What I'm going to do is I'm going to stop the recording and I'm just going to ask about a couple of the names, the spellings. Okay.