00:00:00.140 - 00:00:55.030

No, it's actually recording the screen and the audio that's coming through yeah, yeah so It's recording now, so you should be good I Was a little worried that mine might not work, but can you hear me? Okay? I can hear you great. Can you hear me?

00:00:55.150 - 00:01:05.650

Okay? Yeah, good So just before we start I just like to make sure that you know, everybody we talked to understands We're doing an oral history project

00:01:05.650 - 00:01:22.630

It's a collection of interviews with people who have information about you know Avalon's history and we do use them We take clips from from the audio and we may put it on Facebook or if we ever did An exhibit about library history we may use the interview for that.

00:01:22.730 - 00:02:25.330

Is that all okay with you? Sure. Okay great So, of course you you have a lot to offer in terms of the institutional history of the Avalon Library But I would like to know a little bit more about you as well Can you tell me about your background and how you ended up working in Avalon? Um Well, I I had been a librarian for I don't know 30 years or or whatever and I had My biggest job in libraries was in Michigan I was the director of a class 6 library, which is the largest size library in in Michigan and We had done a new building project and I left that job to get married and moved to Philadelphia and I had a job there and Then I saw an ad in the paper.

00:02:25.510 - 00:02:35.930

It was like two lines for this job in Avalon and It's every librarians dream to build their own library

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It's right from scratch your own staff your own books You know and So I could hardly turn it down and I thought I had reasonable experience

00:02:48.630 - 00:03:08.350

for the job, you know, I knew what had to go into a library and so forth and I Had even been in in a library that had a school attached to it before so I applied And they accepted me so you moved from

00:03:08.350 - 00:03:38.150

Michigan to Avalon, New Jersey Michigan to Philadelphia to Avalon, New Jersey. Yeah, and what were your impressions of the community when you first got there? Hmm Well, I would say the best thing was that it was really a small town and when I was First came it was January.

00:03:38.550 - 00:04:18.650

So it really was a small town It didn't have the summer people and I come from a small town And so that was wonderful and it was wonderful to get to know the town's people That to me was the best the best part of it and also I lived actually over the bridge and It was the best Drive to work I have ever had What did you live in Cape May courthouse? Yes, just over the bridge. I Can't remember the name if I told you the community you would know but it was right over the bridge

00:04:19.530 - 00:04:33.150

Yeah, I am born and raised in Cape May County and I've lived in Rio Grande my whole life but I started working full-time in Avalon about a year and a half ago now and Even though I knew Avalon and I had you know

00:04:33.150 - 00:04:50.770

We've been around for a while that was still very much I had the same impression as you did that it was just such like a small town community Yeah, and you have to really get to know the players and yeah, everybody knows everybody which is really nice thing Yes, I love that.

00:04:50.810 - 00:05:44.770

I love that It was just great and it didn't take very long people would just I I first my first office was a little tiny room in The And I can't see I'm forgetting names of things but where everybody else was where the administration for the town in in that building and People would just stop in and say hi and introduce themselves and and it was it was great. It was just great Yeah, probably borough hall borough hall. That was it. Yeah So that you came I think I talked to Michelle Devine this morning, by the way to see if there were any specific topics I should cover so I think she mentioned you started in 2004 Right.

00:05:45.410 - 00:05:53.130

That's right. And that was before there was Actually a library at all. That's right. Okay, that's right

00:05:53.130 - 00:06:06.760

so my first office was in borough hall and Then when I hired the second person who was Will Porter he was the The reference librarian and was there to help me

00:06:06.760 - 00:06:24.200

Well to do the techie stuff because we had to set up computers choose computers coordinate all that So when he came about eight months later we moved over to the museum and We were up in the attic

00:06:25.080 - 00:06:37.700

We had a little office there and we put our desks so they overlooked the window and it was just the two of us for For quite a while before we hired the rest of them. That's funny.

00:06:37.820 - 00:07:15.300

I'm you probably realize I'm in the museum right now Yes, so yeah, I should have taken the interview up there. Oh You're actually right now in the museum Oh My yeah, well, I would be kind of interested in your job too, but Yeah, that's where we were with all the Relics. In fact, I stole up there. I stole a a mophead Because if I used it as a wig in a story I was doing with the kids Uh-huh.

00:07:15.660 - 00:07:38.200

I still have that mophead I have to tell you. Oh my gosh Well, I'm certain that that wasn't a historic artifact. No, I Don't think it was So what were you and will up to when you were here were you like? Purchasing books or what are the steps to kind of get a library going?

00:07:40.420 - 00:08:28.100

a Lot of that you swell now to get a library going. That's This that was the ending document I gave you the main thing though was the books to start with and that was We had a budget as I recall of $400,000 which is just amazing. It's it's an amazing budget and That takes a long time to spend and we So I did that until will came and then will and I both did that I farmed out some things if I knew someone for instance who was really good at jazz. I

00:08:28.100 - 00:08:49.900

had him look at the jazz lists for things and For the most part we didn't go with any books that weren't recommended, you know Ahead of time we just didn't order books just so that there would be a book there It was the most fun I used

00:08:50.800 - 00:09:07.620

people for literature other things if I had known people in the community better when I started I probably would have used them too because in Retrospect like for instance Terri Terri would have been a good source

00:09:07.900 - 00:10:02.640

To do a lot of that and I I didn't know her until much later on. So so we ordered books we Dealt with the architect on the building. That was an ongoing part of the first part Library cards liked I think that's how you first knew about me we did the library cards and All the things you You know that go into the whole thing How you want your Dewey decimal numbers to read for instance? and so it was as big as the books and as big as the computers in the coordination of the whole computer thing To as small as the library cards every every single Little issue.

00:10:03.020 - 00:10:32.700

Oh, yeah I was thinking about those chairs in the children's room with the little whales and stuff in the back That was me. I insisted on Love those chairs and they had something else in mind. That was just boring. So Yeah That's right But yeah, you were talking about Terri and I think Terri still Is a great source for stuff like that.

00:10:32.780 - 00:10:44.040

She really has her pulse on Yes, the community. Yes. Yeah, we did an interview with with Joe Breslin as well. Oh Yes, I think I've seen that actually.

00:10:44.460 - 00:11:52.080

Yeah, I think I I think that went around on Facebook Ryan does our Facebook post so he does. Oh, that's nice to know Yeah, so I think I did He's your techie nerd, yes, he is Yeah So you are mentioning working with an architect on the building and I understand that You guys were for a short time in the 26th Street school prior to moving to the where the current library is So when you say you were working with the architect were you from the very beginning? working on the design for The current library We didn't know that it was going to take so long that we would have to move back into 26th Street. That was That was that was sort of a blow but that wasn't something we wanted to do But the library wasn't ready and I think it wasn't ready for a whole nother year.

00:11:52.900 - 00:12:18.820

So We were obligated To open and that was the building that was available. So we had to then Tell the book people that and the book people I don't even remember how we chose out of the big collection we were Amassing how we chose which books would go into the smaller library

00:12:18.820 - 00:12:36.060

I think it was probably more current stuff Whereas the reference and and back stuff would would wait for the new building, but So we had to coordinate two moves The move into that library which involved

00:12:36.920 - 00:12:53.740

rental furniture then that we had to get and The book people to deliver a small section of the books to the library so the furniture I know that the building had been the County Library branch

00:12:53.740 - 00:13:53.200

Right, so you're using it right they took everything with them. It was an empty shell There were shelves. There were shelves there and that was all yeah and so we rented desks and chairs and You know bare bare bones really it wasn't it wasn't too fancy We did put up cute posters and things to make it a little better. But it was It was it was interesting so then Michelle and Terri and the The other people that we had hired Worked there and will and I for the most part still worked at the museum We were still plugging away on the books and the computers and all of the things That would go into the new library still So I'll ask you Maybe a sensitive question.

00:13:53.280 - 00:14:04.640

I don't know. Did you experience in your position any kind of turmoil from? Avalon leaving the County Library system. Did that affect you at all?

00:14:10.540 - 00:15:41.240

Well, of course I knew that it would had not gone all over very well and I Early on I made an appointment with the director there and went over and I Don't think we ever had another meeting He was he was still Feeling bruised by the whole process and and so we didn't Yes, I of course everybody knew that that that wasn't going over well, and you know I come from a big from there. I came from a big library system. I understand and understood then his point of view that For the good of the county One library system would be better. You know if you have economies of scale that way That you don't have when you have a little one, but I think that the County Library Was not doing the best job it could have for Avalon and maybe it couldn't have you know and be fair to all the other places, but Avalon was giving a lot of money for a very small amount back into their own little system.

00:15:42.000 - 00:16:15.120

So And they had a right to do it, right I Think there's still a little bit of hard feelings ten years later, but I'm sure I'm sure there is we love our library. Yeah Yeah, so it was good I Just think it was for me. It was such a great thing to Have all that money to work with because libraries

00:16:16.940 - 00:16:36.060

Always have you know, they're the first ones to go when a municipality has to cut things libraries go before fire service or ambulance or whatever a library goes first, and this was a situation where

00:16:36.880 - 00:16:55.980

We pretty much could buy what we needed to and so We weren't extravagant or anything, but we didn't have any limits and it was We all libraries should have that Yeah, I feel the same way about this museum.

00:16:55.980 - 00:17:31.280

It's kind of like a little fantasy land where we Do all the things that we want to do without too much trouble, you know, so it's great That would be really I would really love to know about that because it certainly wasn't that way when I was there and So now you have the money to do things, right? so We are now called Avalon History Center. It's no longer the museum. Oh, yeah, and we're a branch and And Yeah, one budget one organization.

00:17:31.640 - 00:17:38.660

Norm is my boss. So yeah, I report to the library board. Yeah. Yeah, that's great That's really great.

00:17:38.740 - 00:18:25.360

I think that's a just turned out very well for the museum. Yeah, I'm very lucky Yeah So you have a background in in history or Museums or what? Yeah to some extent I did my undergraduate degree in It's called social studies. It was an interdisciplinary social sciences program where oh, yeah created my own focus and I was focusing on commemorative practices Mm-hmm ended up studying abroad in Ireland for a semester and that kind of put me on to the museum thing Yeah, and then I did a master's degree Museum in Wilmington, Delaware.

00:18:26.160 - 00:18:30.280

Oh Sure. Wow. Yep. They have like a curatorial program.

00:18:30.400 - 00:18:55.760

So it's a master's in American material culture. Yeah I was I was a curator at an aviation museum for about a year, which was an adventure At the county airport, I don't know if you know it but Good little place. Yeah. Yeah And then this opened and like you said I was like Oh, I don't know But I applied and yeah, yeah.

00:18:55.800 - 00:19:05.480

Oh, that's great. Yeah so now you have well you you have the whole building in the use of the um

00:19:06.700 - 00:19:24.340

attic Um, do you put on more exhibits do you have the school children in So we we use the upstairs for One there's one other full-time employee here so she works upstairs she has workspace which she needs because she catalogs

00:19:25.360 - 00:19:39.760

and We use the rest of the upstairs for collection storage then the whole downstairs is exhibit rooms and We do have school kids here, which I don't think they were really doing prior to my coming

00:19:39.760 - 00:19:54.860

So i'm very happy to say we have formed a relationship With the school we had sixth grade or i'm sorry fourth graders here Uh on a tour and then they came back and they're doing research and they're going to present their projects at the end of the year Yeah, that's pretty cool.

00:19:54.940 - 00:20:36.860

That's really great. Yeah That's great a good ending to the whole thing is It's nice to hear Yeah So I will rewind us um back to 2000 and I guess maybe we would be in 2005 at the point where you were in 26th street Yeah, I think that's right Is that right? Yeah, I think that's right And Michelle talked a little bit about your first summer there. I guess your only summer there She was mentioning that you guys had some space issues And you could like use some other locations for story time.

00:20:37.040 - 00:21:29.280

Do you remember anything about that? Um I did I went to the uh, there there's one preschool in town as I recall and so I went to that, uh preschool rather than having them come they came once and it was It was doable, but it was hard for them to get there, too so I just um I think it was once a week. I went there To do story times and that was in that period of time the only story time we had Um There you know in the winter There aren't that many children in avalon. There were the Those children that went to preschool and not all that many other ones.

00:21:29.280 - 00:22:42.970

So it was it was enough. I think right Yeah anything else, um You remember about the use of the 26th street building I don't think so No, I don't I don't believe so So then you moved to the new building i'm looking at your list here that you sent to me, right uh in that the fall of 2006 No, this the schedules doesn't seem right does it It couldn't be because I retired in the fall of 2006. So it must be a year A year's difference it must be that in 2005 we moved into oh, right Of course it is. Yeah, because we did we did the 10-year anniversary in 2015.

00:22:43.370 - 00:22:55.350

Yeah Yeah So we're a year off here somehow So what you see on that sheet, um

00:22:56.080 - 00:23:10.350

Was my attempt to get everybody on board in the borough who had to have something to do with making the building Um open on time And um

00:23:10.810 - 00:23:25.770

These are kind of more the major items these smaller items were still going on but we had to coordinate um with the school and with the borough and with the uh

00:23:26.630 - 00:23:49.890

Electric people who who uh did the Computers and make sure that the computers were there on time and I remember there was a terrible issue about whether the furniture was going to get there on time for the opening which But uh, I think there were some buttons pushed and that did happen

00:23:51.790 - 00:24:06.310

I remember that when the books were delivered Um Some It we had had to place so many of them in storage because we moved into

00:24:07.030 - 00:24:18.190

26th street and so some of those had maggots in them and we had to figure out what ones they were like a whole flat full of Yeah, that was not fun

00:24:18.910 - 00:24:28.990

figure out which ones they were and order new ones and That was not fun But um The thing that was

00:24:29.650 - 00:24:41.150

really um for me very moving about that whole piece was That I put out a call for volunteers to help us shelve the books

00:24:42.050 - 00:24:54.870

and They came the townspeople came And they listened to me talk about The dewey decimal system and how to put things in the right order and

00:24:54.870 - 00:25:09.510

They came and they worked and they worked and they worked until every book was on the shelf It was otherwise it couldn't have been done. You know, it was just such a big job at that point um

00:25:10.350 - 00:25:22.610

and I think I think we had snacks and pizzas and all that kind of stuff But I think that the fun of it for everybody was Looking at those brand new books

00:25:23.200 - 00:25:40.630

every book that came on that shelf was a brand new book and you could pick the area that you wanted to shelve in so people, you know who were into fly fishing would pick that part of the library and I think everyone had a really good time

00:25:41.210 - 00:26:11.450

Yeah, that's fun. That's so good Yeah, it really was and I think it in a way made it really everyone's library doing that Yeah, it was fun So now I understand the sheet that you sent over I was thinking that you you were looking back at your records and making a document But no, this was your your plan that you had in place at that time. That's right. I found this on a

00:26:11.450 - 00:26:30.350

Flash key that I still have around I was looking for things that might but I didn't I didn't save things and I was thinking I should there are things I should have saved for you You know, there are pictures I should have taken and I I wasn't thinking on that and I don't know

00:26:30.350 - 00:27:00.950

What you have from all of that if anything, you know I mean, I know there was a lot on emails and so forth, but I didn't this is what i've saved. I don't know We don't have a lot of pictures of Like the load-in You know As you're describing when all the volunteers were there like that would have been a really nice thing to have. Yeah But we do have a ton from like opening day Oh, that's good.

00:27:01.050 - 00:27:29.830

Yeah, it's good. So we did a little slide show of them at the 10th anniversary, which was yeah Yeah I I wouldn't be surprised if some people did have pictures of Of the stacking of the shelves. I'm not I don't know why it isn't me, but well, you were probably a little busy To be thinking about taking pictures for posterity Right Yeah. Oh my Well, it was a lot of fun.

00:27:30.110 - 00:27:48.350

It was really fun And then so you're now you're saying you actually retired only one year later And it was just time it was time for you to go, um My sister had in may of

00:27:49.200 - 00:28:08.010

2006 was killed in a car accident and I was the only child left for my mother and the time You know was just that I needed to be doing something else I had intended to retire after three or four years but um

00:28:08.770 - 00:28:42.870

It just seemed that my priorities had to be elsewhere. So Yeah, I didn't understand along. Yes So were you then involved with bringing Norm on Um, well, I I emailed will actually will is it was my first assistant um, and um, I said do you I emailed him today and I said that I was doing this with you and Did he remember anything that I should bring up? and

00:28:43.690 - 00:28:59.010

He one of the things he does remember is that we interviewed Norm for will's job and after Uh, he had gone will and I sat there and will knew that I was going to be leaving too

00:28:59.710 - 00:29:11.450

And we both agread that that Norm would be better for my job And so when the time came I told Norm that it was going on

00:29:11.450 - 00:29:22.170

and so he came and interviewed So that's uh, yeah, I feel like I had something to do with that Yeah Yeah, it was good

00:29:24.690 - 00:29:39.710

So as you mentioned you had emailed Norm and then it got to me Some information about the barcodes at the library. Could you tell us for the for the tape how those numbers were selected? um

00:29:40.650 - 00:29:56.490

Well, I didn't know anything about how a barcode was put together until I started talking to the people who make library Card barcodes and so forth and the you have the first digit which is

00:29:56.490 - 00:30:07.510

means the first digit means books or Or library card I think it's a one and a two and then the next four digits

00:30:08.030 - 00:30:20.570

mean um your library code And so I had to make up a code for The library cards

00:30:21.030 - 00:30:34.630

and the library books and so that's I just I chose 1919 for my mother's birthday and 1939 for my husband's birthday So that's what those

00:30:34.630 - 00:30:44.110

next four digits after the The first digit are and then after that it's the library That

00:30:45.110 - 00:31:01.530

It would be zero one probably for the zero zero one for the first library card issued for instance And and so on and I think that those Those numbers stand to this day, right?

00:31:01.970 - 00:31:24.650

I I would imagine that they would yeah and probably for a good long time until you get a new library I suppose So you have a legacy? Yeah Yeah, but that's very sweet you're clearly very connected to your family. Yeah, that was that was good. Yeah That was fun.

00:31:24.990 - 00:31:48.090

Are you are you in a screened-in porch? Yes, i'm on my screened-in porch. It's probably Pretty close to 80. Oh my gosh I Don't know what you're doing up there, but I heard yesterday that it was it had snowed in massachusetts anyway Yeah, you have snow.

00:31:48.170 - 00:31:58.850

We didn't have snow yesterday, but it was terribly windy and cold. Oh, oh, yeah Oh, yeah, well, come on down. Yeah, what's very nice? What part of florida?

00:31:59.130 - 00:32:30.490

I'm in st Augustine which is north florida really but um when when march first hits it's spring here i've got bluebirds in my bluebird house and Hummingbirds back from costa rica and everything is good here But in another month, I won't want to be here Because it's hot. It's just too hot. Yeah It's really so are you still you're fully retired or you work part-time or anything? No, i'm fully retired.

00:32:30.610 - 00:33:21.510

Yeah lots of reading um Yeah, I do reading I I have a little volunteer job at a school Um, we travel a lot You know, it's all fun. Yeah Do you go to the local library and criticize them? Oh, yeah No, I don't but I did um Apply for and it's a big county system here. I applied to be a board member Here and It was very clear that they weren't going to have any former library directors on their board And I understand that because I have Witnessed that that that former library directors are the worst.

00:33:21.530 - 00:34:14.590

But of course, I didn't think that would apply to me You're the exception i'm quite sure right So they don't want me Too bad. Yeah, is there any topic that I didn't cover that I should have? Um Well, I I think one thing that I would want to say and will said this too about how we both knew Immediately about Michelle and about Terri. I mean it was You someone walks in to your office and You know, it's it's not always easy to tell if this will be a good employee or not But we absolutely knew about the two of them and it's proven to be true.

00:34:14.690 - 00:34:47.970

Yeah, it just They're just terrific. So Yeah, I agree. I guess that uh Yeah And other than that I think that You know we got it it's a job of a lot of coordination of a lot of people and We got so much cooperation. I mean from the school and the borough and And the townspeople.

00:34:48.030 - 00:35:19.330

I mean it would there was a lot of coordination and cooperation that went into it It was a real community project. I think It was a lot of fun Yeah Well, it's been good to learn a little bit more about it I hear you know bits and pieces from here and there so yeah Yeah, well, I wish I had more documentation, but uh I don't oh I do have The only other thing I have I don't know if you saw any of these. Can you see that? Is it a read poster?

00:35:19.910 - 00:35:39.810

Yeah Some of those we have a bunch of those. Yeah from from right when you started, but I don't think we have that one You you may not have this one And I happen to have two so I may send you this I would really love that. Okay If you don't mind, yeah, yeah, I will send you that. All right.

00:35:39.990 - 00:36:01.910

Thank you Yeah, that was fun, that's all I have though I can't believe that's all I have It's okay. You've done this interview. So you've added to the record. All right, that's good Um, and if you do, you know if you lay your head down on the pillow tonight and you think I didn't tell her that story we can always Do another one.

00:36:02.030 - 00:36:09.470

Um, okay, and certainly if you're ever in town, I would love to go for a coffee or something All right. All right, we'll do that. Okay. All right.

00:36:09.610 - 00:36:12.730

Thank you so much. Have a great day. Thanks. Bye.

00:36:12.790 - 00:36:35.910

Bye Now what do I do here I'll hang up okay All right, I really hope that taped It should um when I have my little recorder, you know The little light is there to make me feel not so anxious about whether it's recording